Interlingua cognates

[bartlett]

> However, it is probable that due to the obscurity of tutonish,
> originators of such languages as Folkspraak may not have been aware
> that a well worked out language preceded them.

Thanks for that information. There excists low quality online copy of Tutonish tutorial. I sent information to Folksprak discussion list.

That 225 pages are round about A5 paper size, isn't? I assume letters are at least 12 pt or 14 pt. Thats not much text to type. But in the middle part of the copy often text were not scanned correctly. Thats problem.

Amicalmente,

This has drifted off topic concerning Interlingua so I will just make one closing remark about tutonish. Go to the online book service http://www.alibris.com and search on the name Molee, Elias . The book has been reprinted in hard copy, in some cases in India and in some cases in the USA. I have a softcover bound hard copy reprinted in the USA. The original copy (or perhaps the reproduction process) left some of the letters in the copy less than fully crisp, but everything is there and fully readable. The book is old enough to be in the public domain, so there is no problem with copyright.

Amicalmente ad omnes,
Paul Bartlett

[esra]

> This has drifted off topic concerning Interlingua so I will just
> make one closing remark about tutonish.

To late I already created project name for it: Radio Gran

According glosbe.com:

German: Radio
Danish: Radio
Swedish: Radio

Swedish: Gran
Norway Bokmål: Gran
Danish: Gran

> Go to the online book service
> http://www.alibris.com and search on the name Molee, Elias . The book
> has been reprinted in hard copy, in some cases in India and in some
> cases in the USA. I have a softcover bound hard copy reprinted in the
> USA. The original copy (or perhaps the reproduction process) left
> some of the letters in the copy less than fully crisp, but everything
> is there and fully readable. The book is old enough to be in the
> public domain, so there is no problem with copyright.

Wow. Thanks for that information!

I was wrong. That copy at Archive.org already comes with usable full text non-formated ocr output. Not the best, but I could serve some ground to build on it. Cool.

[esra]

Latin castellum 'castle, fortress' came with Roman Church by Czech : kostel to Polish kościół meaning 'church'. Russian komnata for 'room' comes probably from Old Polish, and that from Medieval Latin caminata - 'a place with chimney'.

Yes, I'm also often surprized and faszinated how much inter cultures ties excists. Maybe also that Dnghu.org project could interest you.

[esra]

> But what of Interlingua? Is it supposed to be Yet Another Romance
> Language, or is it supposed to be an international language?

Personally I see Interlingua like political effort to establish very well extracted Zonal Constructed Language. To spread Interlingua thats political aim. Every nation has its own culture institut which try to promote its standard defined version of national language. I.e. Instituto Cervantes for Spanish, Institut français for French, Goethe Institut for German, British Council for English etc. So, that language culture promotion institutions need to convinced that regarding Zonal Conlangs also will promote its own historical matured language version of Spanish, French etc.

> If I want a language for just an
> Indo-European subgroup, then I would try to revive Molee's tutonish.

Yes, its definitly worth to be promoted. According this information his last proposal Altutonish he added "800 fundamental vocabulary". Recently I ordered copies of his three proposals Tutonish, Nu Tutonish and Altutonish to analyze what it is all about.

> I want Interlingua to be international, not just Romance.

Then at least it has to be "blended" with other Zonal Constructed Languages, in detail Interslavic and - maybe - (Al-)Tutonish. Maybe Lidepla also could put into some Asian interlanguage flavour into that world prototype language.

Amicalmente,

[esra]

From artistic perspective I would interpret Zonal Construted languages like errant blocks (Svedish Flyttblock) once spreaded around by glacier movements and now mapped together again regarding its historical shared topographic (=cultural) source. During traveling around Northern Germany (Baltic Sea), South Sveden and Danmark I often have seen that errant blocks in real. So that errant blocks idea faszinates me much more than some political world language efforts.

[bartlett]

> But what of Interlingua? Is it supposed to be Yet Another Romance
> Language, or is it supposed to be an international language?

Personally I see Interlingua like political effort to establish very well extracted Zonal Constructed Language. To spread Interlingua thats political aim. Every nation has its own culture institut which try to promote its standard defined version of national language. I.e. Instituto Cervantes for Spanish, Institut français for French, Goethe Institut for German, British Council for English etc. So, that language culture promotion institutions need to convinced that regarding Zonal Conlangs also will promote its own historical matured language version of Spanish, French etc.

There are issues here. Some people might be interested in a "Zonal Constructed Language," such as Interslavic for the Slavic populations, Folkspraak or tutonish for the Germanic populations, something else for the Romance orbit. There was even Afrihili for Africans, although I think it did not succeed.

But what do we want? Do we really want "Zonal Constructed Languages"? I myself prefer the ideal of a more or less worldwide international language, even if we realize and acknowledge that no one proposed or actual international language will be equally easy for all adult learners around the world. This is a sad fact. However, we can try to ease the burden for as many people as possible, as long as we recognize that alleged perfection is unattainable. I personally want to see a worldwide language, not just zonal ones. That is why as much as I like (love) Interlingua, I am not certain it will succeed outside the WENSA* orbit.

*WENSA:
Western
Europe
North and
South America
Australia and New Zealand, with other West European (such as lusophone) speaking countries

> If I want a language for just an
> Indo-European subgroup, then I would try to revive Molee's tutonish.

Yes, its definitly worth to be promoted. According this information his last proposal Altutonish he added "800 fundamental vocabulary". Recently I ordered copies of his three proposals Tutonish, Nu Tutonish and Altutonish to analyze what it is all about.

Although tutonish is not strictly about Interlingua, I have had the opportunity to examine several versions of Molee's work. It is my honest opinion that his original version of 1902 was the best.

> I want Interlingua to be international, not just Romance.

Then at least it has to be "blended" with other Zonal Constructed Languages, in detail Interslavic and - maybe - (Al-)Tutonish. Maybe Lidepla also could put into some Asian interlanguage flavour into that world prototype language.

Amicalmente,

Of course, there have been many proposed world languages. The only one which has had any even slight degree of success, as we know, is Esperanto. Despite its somewhat European-biased vocabulary, its grammar is not strictly Indo-European, and it has had some slight degree of success outside the Indo-European orbit. Again, as much as I like Interlingua, we have to face the fact that Esperanto is far ahead of it worldwide.

Amicalmente ad omnes,
Paul Bartlett

[esra]

> There are issues here. Some people might be interested in a "Zonal
> Constructed Language," such as Interslavic for the Slavic
> populations, Folkspraak or tutonish for the Germanic populations,
> something else for the Romance orbit. There was even Afrihili for
> Africans, although I think it did not succeed.
>
> But what do we want? Do we really want "Zonal Constructed
> Languages"?

Well, Zonal Constructed Languages also set (new?) borderlines which some
worldwide bridge language tries to avoid. But, I mean, Zonal Constructed
Languages can grow together by nature. They have some philosophy behind.

> I myself prefer the ideal of a more or less worldwide international
> language, even if we realize and acknowledge that no one proposed or
> actual international language will be equally easy for all adult
> learners around the world. This is a sad fact.

I'm sorry but I can't feel lot of empathy with that sadness because I'm
pragmatist. I feel fine if some bridge language helps me inside that
range I have the monetary budget to travel to regulary on holiday.

> However, we can try to ease the burden for as many people as
> possible, as long as we recognize that alleged perfection is
> unattainable. I personally want to see a worldwide language, not just
> zonal ones. That is why as much as I like (love) Interlingua, I am
> not certain it will succeed outside the WENSA* orbit.

Matter could be if Romanic native speakers would accept Interlingua as
is or refuse it to be to much deformed or to much mashed up. Regarding
that I can not say something. Maybe somebody other can do?

> Although tutonish is not strictly about Interlingua, I have had the
> opportunity to examine several versions of Molee's work. It is my
> honest opinion that his original version of 1902 was the best.

Thanks. I will test it.

> Of course, there have been many proposed world languages. The only
> one which has had any even slight degree of success, as we know, is
> Esperanto.

But in times of Internet ressources people have the opportunity to
change very fast into another (con-)lang communities. And day by day
Esperanto language loses historical benefits of sucessfull former ages.
These times are gone. Interlinga never reached sucess like Esperanto,
but contrary to Esperanto, Interlingua can point to language crumbs
inside our languages, even German ones. During digitalisation of Schilds
Curso de Interlingua I very often have seen it that way. I.e. similarity
between -isar suffix and German -isieren I found very funny. I first
thought it has to do something with river Isar which flows through
Munich town but later I realized that "-isar = -isieren" similarity.
Thats fun I never felt with Esperanto. I.e. I once heard some French
Esperantist spoke "bremsi" which sounds to near to German "bremsen". It
should be similar, but not excactly same. Thats why I like Interlingua
and probably Tutonish, too. "Interlingua, compotiera
del vocabulos commun in nostre linguas". That way it should go and
not that over-hyped one of "artifical neutrality".

> Despite its somewhat European-biased vocabulary, its grammar is not
> strictly Indo-European, and it has had some slight degree of success
> outside the Indo-European orbit. Again, as much as I like
> Interlingua, we have to face the fact that Esperanto is far ahead of
> it worldwide.

Inside his text book Stenstroem claims that probably there excists only
20,000 (A1/A2/B1 level?) esperantists worldwide. In Germany that would
categorized "Kleinstadt"(provincial town). Thats probably the reason
why Herzberg got the official title "Esperanto town"

[bartlett]

For brevity, I will shorten some prior texts.

per esra - dom. jan 26, 2014 5:54 pm
>
> [Paul Bartlett wrote:]
> > There are issues here. [...]
> >
> > But what do we want? Do we really want "Zonal Constructed
> > Languages"?
>
> Well, Zonal Constructed Languages also set (new?) borderlines which some
> worldwide bridge language tries to avoid.

I am not sure what you mean here. I will be grateful if you could elaborate.

> But, I mean, Zonal Constructed
> Languages can grow together by nature. They have some philosophy behind.

How can zonal languages grow together? It would seem to me that they would just make the issue no better, and possibly worse.

> > I myself prefer the ideal of a more or less worldwide international
> > language, even if we realize and acknowledge that no one proposed or
> > actual international language will be equally easy for all adult
> > learners around the world. This is a sad fact.
>
> I'm sorry but I can't feel lot of empathy with that sadness because I'm
> pragmatist. I feel fine if some bridge language helps me inside that
> range I have the monetary budget to travel to regulary on holiday.

Yes, but some of us do not have the opportunity to travel. I am an older person in the USA, and despite what some people might think, not all Americans are rich. I am not, and I travel very little. For example, I have a sister whom I have not seen in many years, because she lives in another part of North America, and we cannot afford to travel together. However, I am able to afford a computer and internet connection, so I can meet with people online. I am willing to meet with people from all around the world this way, if it should happen, and not just some whom I might meet through a zonal language.

> > [...]
>
> [...]
>
> > Of course, there have been many proposed world languages. The only
> > one which has had any even slight degree of success, as we know, is
> > Esperanto.
>
> But in times of Internet ressources people have the opportunity to
> change very fast into another (con-)lang communities.

Yes, but I have been around the international auxiliary language movement on the internet for many years, and I have noticed that few people actually do change.

> And day by day
> Esperanto language loses historical benefits of sucessfull former ages.

??? In what way?

> These times are gone. Interlinga never reached sucess like Esperanto,

So far, that is true.

> but contrary to Esperanto, Interlingua can point to language crumbs
> inside our languages, even German ones.

Yes, but there are also cognates or similarities within Esperanto to European languags.

> [...]
>
> > Despite its somewhat European-biased vocabulary, its grammar is not
> > strictly Indo-European, and it has had some slight degree of success
> > outside the Indo-European orbit. Again, as much as I like
> > Interlingua, we have to face the fact that Esperanto is far ahead of
> > it worldwide.
>
> Inside his text book Stenstroem claims that probably there excists only
> 20,000 (A1/A2/B1 level?) esperantists worldwide. In Germany that would
> categorized "Kleinstadt"(provincial town). Thats probably the reason
> why Herzberg got the official title "Esperanto town"

Here in the USA we do not use terms like "A1/A2/B1 level," so I am not sure what level of competence these measures refer to. I fully acknowledge that individuals' levels of competence varies, whether with respect to Esperanto, Interlingua, or any other constructed auxiliary language. This is a fact of human nature, particularly regarding learning of languages as adults. And I am sure that whatever levels of competence these terms refer to, there are nowhere as many Interlinguaists worldwide at the same or similar levels.

Amicalmente ad omnes,
Paul Bartlett

[esra]

>> Well, Zonal Constructed Languages also set (new?) borderlines which
>> some worldwide bridge language tries to avoid.
>
> I am not sure what you mean here. I will be grateful if you could
> elaborate.

Zonal Conlangs are hardening linguistic borderlines which already excists. I.e. Political borderline between Czech Republic and Germany, and borderline between Poland and Germany, its also marks linguistic borderlines between Slavic language space and Germanic language space. There are political efforts by the EU commission body to soften these linguistic borderlines. i.e. EURES, EFRE etc.

>> But, I mean, Zonal Constructed Languages can grow together by
>> nature. They have some philosophy behind.
>
> How can zonal languages grow together? It would seem to me that they
> would just make the issue no better, and possibly worse.

Well, at least concerning the vocabulary, the same Rule of Three by Interlingua could applied to regarding Zonal Conlangs, too. At some level people should find mutualities by themselves. Here abstract EU commission's politic of subsidiarity could meet citizens needs in reality.

Recently I found tool which can create and sort list right to left. Word frequencies will sorted by their word endings instead of word beginnings. Thats nothing special. Someones can do same with TextSTAT tool and use of its regular expression feature. Probably that way lot of further cognate attributes could be found inside several Zonal conlangs.

Somewhat off-topic: In history Standard German also was attempt to unite regional Germanic dialects as much as possible. I see Standard German similar like Zonal Conlang. So, national languages inside EU body could be categorized like dialects of political body European Union.

>> But in times of Internet ressources people have the opportunity to
>> change very fast into another (con-)lang communities.
>
> Yes, but I have been around the international auxiliary language
> movement on the internet for many years, and I have noticed that few
> people actually do change.

I don't think that the Internet can map 1:1 the offline-world and reverse. Further I think that people at Internet act different than they would do offline. For me, the Internet remains extension of the offline world. So, I would be carefully to transfer trends seen on the Net to assume offline situations. Not everybody who acts offline that ones also keeps record of its actitvity on the internet.

>> And day by day Esperanto language loses historical benefits of
>> sucessfull former ages.
>
> ??? In what way?

More and more brand name Esperanto gets unknown. In near past there happened nothing where Esperanto community did offer some practical solution for. Esperanto neither did prevent some inner Europe wars (i.e. Bosnian war), nor earlier they was inital trigger of creation of Europe Union. Nowadays Esperanto presents itselves like hobby just for amusement. They want to be political but they are not in any way. They lost their origin political aim (internationalism) which was their strength (against war nationalism). That puts Esperanto down into same level like Interlingua and others.

>> but contrary to Esperanto, Interlingua can point to language
>> crumbs inside our languages, even German ones.
>
> Yes, but there are also cognates or similarities within Esperanto to
> European languags.

Yes, for sure. Word building is very Slavish and Esperanto's root words often were choosen on purpose to annul national language character they were borrow from.

> Here in the USA we do not use terms like "A1/A2/B1 level," so I am
> not sure what level of competence these measures refer to.

That levels point to CEFR. There also exists Esperanto version. Since 2009 edukado.net organizes such called worldwide KER certificates to collect statistical data for further political use.

[pne]

BTW, have you heard about any project of Celtic auxlang ?

Well, "auxlang" means "auxiliary language", or more Englishly, a "helping language"... and the problem with a hypothetical Celtic auxlang is, whom do you want to help?

I think that the number of monoglot Celtic speakers must be very small indeed in the year 2015: just about everyone will speak either English or French, I think. So I don't think they need to learn another language to communicate amongst themselves, unless you are talking about Bretons speaking with Insular Celts.

The other problem is that there are comparatively few speakers of Celtic. The impression I have is that Welsh is the most vital Celtic language, followed perhaps by Breton and then Irish. Scottish Gaelic is small, Manx all but died out before it was revived, and Cornish only exists in a revived form, albeit with a small handful of native speakers.

So even if all Celtic speakers were monoglots, the audience for a Celtic auxlang would be comparatively small.

If you wanted to make a kind of pan-Celtic artlang (artistic constructed language) just for fun, with a "voting"/"rule of three" method similar to that in Interslavic or Interlingua, that would surely be possible, but an auxlang would (I think) be pointless.

Though I wonder how such a hypothetical pan-Celtic language would bridge the P/Q gap. Have two versions of each affected word? If not, they would surely have to "take sides" with one of the two.

In Interslavic, that's not so difficult, since there is typically a majority (for example, g --> h in Czech, Slovak, and Ukrainian(?) but not elsewhere), but I think the numbers in Celtic are more evenly divided (three "major" languages in each division: Irish-Sc. Gaelic-Manx in Q, Welsh-Cornish-Breton in P).