"Interlingua - Phonetic English (alike)" ?

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Re: "Interlingua - Phonetic English alike" (?)

Message publicper Oeste » ven. dec 13, 2013 2:42 am

Merely substituting words one for one from one's own language simply will not do. I have read texts in Interlingua which were little more than relexified English, and to be honest they seemed rather strange to me


Yes, my own initial attempts have been quite clumsy in this regard.

...even when the "source" and "target" languages come from the same or similar linguistic families. And a mere list of signs for words will not by itself capture the syntax and "spirit."



Well, that's one of the big challenges isn't it? Machine translation versus free translation? From where I'm sitting I can't see any way to have an international language without a strong bias either toward a preferred set of cultural referents like those of western civilizations OR toward a more bloodless culturally neutral language which many parties consensually adopt and lose all that 'spirit'. For sure I can't imagine a worse language than english. It is nearly incomprehensible at times to me and I've been speaking it all my life. Its one great advantage for americans at least is that people from anywhere can completely mangle it grammatically, with accents, and rhythm and it is still understandable. You can say most things to a cosmopolitan american with twenty words of bad english and hand gestures.

So much comes down to the goal. A language for international diplomacy? An international trade lingua franca? A scientific/technical language for academia? Common language for pen pals? I could see how each of these would have very different constraints and requirements.

Which brings me back to your original phonetic english question. Is your personal goal the promotion of an international language for one or more of these purposes? Or is your personal goal more of a curiosity or academic interest?

For me these considerations are almost entirely edutainment. Except for the purposes of learning interlingua itself I don't think I'll have much use for the international component or penpals.

Now, this has benefitted some others in other 'hobbies' of mine and have on several occasions been profitable financially.

I like contributing, even if the principle goal was self gratification of a curious itch. My brother says my life is lived on a 'need to know' basis in the sense of once I get it in my head, I need to learn it, do it, master it.
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Re: "Interlingua - Phonetic English alike" (?)

Message publicper esra » ven. dec 13, 2013 11:14 am

Oeste scribeva:Well, from a pragmatic perspective there is not much chance of persuading large numbers of people to do anything at all.
Well, it depends on. I also see it very pragmatic. I.e. MEPs organizing itself inside political groups, isn't? Okay, compared to current power of European Council and European Commission, European Parliament MEPs doesn't have much power. But there are already initatives inside EP to establish pan-european voters list. If that initatives see it productive to support Interlingua, then they will do. Btw, second non-officialy bridge language after English is French which relates very strong to Romanic Interlingua which by itselves includes English like an Romanic source language.

Oeste scribeva:When it comes to language and communication it boils down to motivation. There is no motivation on the part of the majority of people to learn any system of international communication.
Well, I would like correct that there is "less" motivation. International interaction and motiviation to learn some foreign language was demystified through commercial success of Internet facilities. Nowadays mostly everybody can be part of some international community by only launch some Web browser. No much need to be part of some international polictial movement i.e. like traditional+ Esperanto movement organizations promotes itselves.

+which act diffent than current grass root youth initatives like i.e. JES or FESTO event etc.

Oeste scribeva:International business people and national governments are the only groups with a strong need. Travelers, tourists and students will learn whichever language suits their purposes. The way the world is going Mandarin will be very useful everywhere soon.
As long Europe will not contain some strong Asian culture Mandarin will have very less chances to get accepted by European Union citizens like some pan-European spoken or written bridge language.

Oeste scribeva:Most Europeans speak enough English to get along anywhere it is spoken.
Inside Europe it depends on generation and region. Younger folks more often enforced to relocate inside Europe thats why they also are enforced to reach some spoken foreign language skills. "On streets" spoken ESL English skills are more present inside Central and Western Europe than inside South and East Europe.

In my opinion to spread Interlingua (and Interslavic, too) it has to make prove to get accepted Europe-wide like an spoken bridge language. Written, the English language already works very well. In my opinion spoken Interlingua and spoken Interslavic could accompany written English bridge language communication very well.

Oeste scribeva:For international written communication an ideographic system something like blissymbols would make more sense. Learn them in your own language and you can read anything written by anyone in blissymbols.
Thanks to mention that. Very interesting.

Oeste scribeva:Unfortunately one organization has the patent and copyright on it. So, it will have to be something as easily mastered but a new system.
Then I assume it will not wide-spread further.

Oeste scribeva:My own current infatuation with interlingua is mostly to help my writing in english.
Same to me. Thats also why I proposed to promote Interlingua the way "Interlingua - Phonetic English alike". (Or "like"? instead of "alike"?)

Oeste scribeva:Forcing my brain into processing a 'new' language also causes it to shift its word-finding in daily life. I intend to translate some of the science entries on english wikipedia into interlingua for posting to the interlingua wikipedia in order to shake up and reprocess that information for my own enhanced understanding.
That would be great. Thanks for your efforts.
Radio Pruno projects: IA-DE translation of Dictionario basic (2,500 parolas) & digitalization of Interlingua kompakt (both under construction)
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Re: "Interlingua - Phonetic English alike" (?)

Message publicper esra » ven. dec 13, 2013 12:16 pm

Oeste scribeva:It is much easier to master an ideagraphic system using your own language than to master a new language like interlingua.
But at least with German there excists interferences between. Knowing English and German and some Esperanto, for me, Interlingua is not some complete new foreign language. Okay, I still have to learn much new root words. But generally, I feel much motivated to learn Interlingua. Its very nice sounding language which remembers me to clear pronounced Italian language a lot.

Stenström's Part 2 "Commentario" often mentions that interferences which will show up inside Part 1 "Textos". Btw. at Speak-along Karaoke versions that lower case numbers points to correspondending Commentarios of Part II. It was not that trivial to implement that upper case foot notes but I found a lower case solution which works with Karaoke tool I used to create that videos. Depending on time and motivation one day I will made some DVD version of that videos. That would "most" cool. ;-)

"... Stenström, Ingvar: Interlingua — instrumento moderne de communication international Parte I "Textos" Reimpression per Servicio de Libros UMI. 1987, 54 pp., ill. 20 × 14 cm.

Iste edition es le prime parte "Textos", que contine 30 lectiones in interlingua e dunque pote esser usate in omne paises. Le secunde parte "Commentario", con explicationes del grammatica e structura de interlingua, es editate separatemente in varie linguas national.
Le manual de Ingvar Stenström ha devenite un classico, utilisate jam in multe paises ..."

Oeste scribeva:Because symbol systems contain the root meaning in the symbols themselves, it may even be easier to think in a symbol system than in an acquired language. This idea is abstracted from mathematics.
This idea also seems to be idea of sign-based Asian languages.

Oeste scribeva:I'm working my way through "Lege interlingua e apprende su structura". I'm sure that someone similarly talented to Harleigh Kyson Jr could create a very interesting and productive, mostly ideagraphic tutorial as well.
Huh! Very interesting! I also posted that at Interslavic Zetaboards.

http://www.interlingua.com/e-libros/leg ... aeapprende
http://www.oocities.org/hkyson/curso.htm

Oeste scribeva:Since I can't see any company footing the bill for this venture it would have to be funded by a benefactor like the woman who funded the development of interlingua.
If I got it right Angela thought that schematic Esperanto did get scientific status of being ultimative bridge language. Instead of naturalistic Interlingua was compiled .
Radio Pruno projects: IA-DE translation of Dictionario basic (2,500 parolas) & digitalization of Interlingua kompakt (both under construction)
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Re: "Interlingua - Phonetic English alike" (?)

Message publicper Oeste » ven. dec 13, 2013 7:01 pm

.even when the "source" and "target" languages come from the same or similar linguistic families. And a mere list of signs for words will not by itself capture the syntax and "spirit."


I wanted to return to this because it misses one aspect of ideographic communication. Ideographs are more than random signs as logographs are. In spoken alphabetic languages the letters refer to sounds. The relationship of letter to sound is arbitrary in its original assignment. The objects referred to by the sounds of words are arbitrary except for onomatopoeia. In contrast, a symbolic ideograph captures something of the idea, less arbitrarily. eg. in Blissymbolics a bowl shape alone means container. A bowl shape with an up pointed arrow means giving. A bowl shape with a down pointed arrow means receiving. A bowl shape with a two ended up and down arrow means exchange. This means something of the spirit of whatever you are saying in this sort of language is contained in the symbol.
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Re: "Interlingua - Phonetic English alike" (?)

Message publicper Oeste » ven. dec 13, 2013 8:08 pm

Thanks Esra and Bartlett for your communications so far.

Esra it seems your main interest in an international language is related to european politics. For that purpose interlingua and interslavic make sense for the reasons you mention. Because I live on an island in the pacific ocean and encounter asians every day, my concerns are less eurocentric. In fact my concerns are almost entirely theoretical and as yet have very little practical application for me.

But at least with German there excists interferences between. Knowing English and German and some Esperanto, for me, Interlingua is not some complete new foreign language. Okay, I still have to learn much new root words. But generally, I feel much motivated to learn Interlingua. Its very nice sounding language which remembers me to clear pronounced Italian language a lot.


Yes, as an english speaker, spanish speaker and student of latin when in high school, interlingua is more like being reminded of a language I already know than learning a new language. To me is sounds like italian also. As spoken by croatians. Next, maybe interslavic, though that would be a challenge for me. Is there an intergermanic? Internorse?

"... Stenström, Ingvar: Interlingua — ....utilisate jam in multe paises ..."



Thanks for the tip!

Nowadays mostly everybody can be part of some international community by only launch some Web browser.


Yes, as this board is.

Oeste scribeva:
Unfortunately one organization has the patent and copyright on it. So, it will have to be something as easily mastered but a new system.


Then I assume it will not wide-spread further.


Blissymbolics itself will probably not spread. There is no reason that a different and better system could not be developed. Or, since the links seem to be going dead on some Bliss sites, they may be willing to let go of the copyright.

Years ago I downloaded numerous files of a pictography called Signology. It seems interesting, but I don't know whether any such signographic system can be adequate for any but the most elementary communication.


Looked all over for signology and couldn't find it, alas. Checked out some other systems. Most are too confusing, abstract, arbitrary, or iconic. The Elephant's Memory was entertaining, fun, and instantly understandable to me. But it lacks any sort of handwritten capacity. Fun for texting probably. Like iConji or zlango.

Still trying to get my finger on the pulse of the auxiliary language community. This is leading me to read reams of commentary and to play around with different systems. All great fun. A bit like the bar scene in Star Wars.

It's becoming clear that the best reason for learning interlingua is not to have a spoken language for use with international contacts. The best reason is to grasp the roots of romance culture as encoded in language. The romance underpinnings of so much of english are making more sense.
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Re: "Interlingua - Phonetic English alike" (?)

Message publicper esra » ven. dec 13, 2013 9:50 pm

Oeste scribeva:
> Which brings me back to your original phonetic english question. Is
> your personal goal the promotion of an international language for one
> or more of these purposes? Or is your personal goal more of a
> curiosity or academic interest?

At Interforo it mainly concerns Interlingua promotion and collaboration to other alive naturalistic conlangs like Interslavic.

> It's becoming clear that the best reason for learning interlingua is
> not to have a spoken language for use with international contacts.
> The best reason is to grasp the roots of romance culture as encoded
> in language. The romance underpinnings of so much of english are
> making more sense.

I read that Interlingua handles English like some Romanic source language.

> Yes, as an english speaker, spanish speaker and student of latin
> when in high school, interlingua is more like being reminded of a
> language I already know than learning a new language. To me is sounds
> like italian also. As spoken by croatians. Next, maybe interslavic,
> though that would be a challenge for me. Is there an intergermanic?
> Internorse?

Yes, there is. As far I know it seems to be extremly difficult to prototype some naturalistic conlang out of Germanic languages. There seems to be more commonalities inside living Romanic and Slavic languages than inside Germanic languages. So, there excists Folkspra(a)k. But they are not very active. Maybe some side projects of Folkspraak could be interesting for you? Especially Frenkisch and SamSkandinavisk: http://konstspraik.blogspot.de/

I don't know. Maybe Lidepla also finds your interest.

http://lingwadeplaneta.info
http://www.jonny-m.org/hauptseite.php?lang=en ("Nove Lingwa" Release)

Amicalmente,
Radio Pruno projects: IA-DE translation of Dictionario basic (2,500 parolas) & digitalization of Interlingua kompakt (both under construction)
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Re: "Interlingua - Phonetic English alike" (?)

Message publicper esra » sab. dec 14, 2013 11:00 pm

> though that would be a challenge for me. Is there an intergermanic?
> Internorse?

They all are Zonal constructed languages.
Radio Pruno projects: IA-DE translation of Dictionario basic (2,500 parolas) & digitalization of Interlingua kompakt (both under construction)
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Re: "Interlingua - Phonetic English alike" (?)

Message publicper bartlett » sab. dec 14, 2013 11:41 pm

esra scribeva:> though that would be a challenge for me. Is there an intergermanic?
> Internorse?

They all are Zonal constructed languages.

Some serious activity just in the last couple of days!!! :o As for an intergermanic, the reference mentions Elias Molee's tutonish (in practice, he did not use capital / majuscule letters) which he originally published in the USA in 1902. It is still available in reprint. (I have a copy.) I have always thought well of it, as he intended it to replace, eventually, the Germanic languages, including even English, which he counted among the Germanic tongues despite its heavily Latin / Romance vocabulary today. Perhaps it is just lack of knowledge that modern "inventors" of proposed intergermanics have not paid more attention to Molee's tutonish. Some years ago I posted an extract on an auxiliary language mailing list, and the Scandinavian members of the list replied that they could understand most of it at sight without difficulty.

(Of course, an intergermanic is not immediately relevant to Interlingua ;) although I myself have long had serious reservations about considering Interlingua as a sort of interromance. I want an International Auxiliary Language, not just Yet Another Romance Language.)

Paul Bartlett
Le ultime vice modificate per bartlett dom. dec 15, 2013 12:05 am, modificate 1 vice in total.
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Re: "Interlingua - Phonetic English alike" (?)

Message publicper bartlett » sab. dec 14, 2013 11:59 pm

A small excerpt. :)

Oeste scribeva:Blissymbolics itself will probably not spread. There is no reason that a different and better system could not be developed. Or, since the links seem to be going dead on some Bliss sites, they may be willing to let go of the copyright.

Years ago I downloaded numerous files of a pictography called Signology. It seems interesting, but I don't know whether any such signographic system can be adequate for any but the most elementary communication.


Looked all over for signology and couldn't find it, alas. Checked out some other systems. Most are too confusing, abstract, arbitrary, or iconic. The Elephant's Memory was entertaining, fun, and instantly understandable to me. But it lacks any sort of handwritten capacity. Fun for texting probably. Like iConji or zlango.

The last time I ever looked online for Signology, I could not find it again myself. However, I had downloaded everything on it and ZIPped up the (html/graphic) files, about 1.3MB (35 .htm files plus all the graphics). I don't recall whether the author claimed copyright, so I suppose I could make it available. One thing is that it is strictly a graphical writing, not something using "computer keyboard" characters (such as Unicode or whatever). Again, it seemed to be ingenious, but I doubt that one could write deep philosophy in it. :D (Its apparent disappearance is so very typical of what happens on the internet.)
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Re: "Interlingua - Phonetic English alike" (?)

Message publicper Oeste » dom. dec 15, 2013 1:23 am

Thanks for all the resources on IAL candidates and interlanguages.

Reading on interfora.org and elsewhere is leading me to ask some questions about the overarching intentions of different factions, for lack of a better term, within the IAL community. There are the 'one world, one language' people who want every school child everywhere to learn the same international language, the 'we need to avoid all this expensive and confusing international translation' pragmatists, the language hobbyists, the regional interest fellows, eg. EU government language, et. al. But the main thing I'm noticing is that most of the discussion on the internet is conducted in english. Even when linguists at asian universities are discussing the possibilities they are doing so in english. So to my mind english is already the international language. What a terrible reality. It is a difficult, sometimes opaque language made of the spare parts of other languages to begin with and it is the default.

Interlingua is a logical, easy, rhythmic, sonorous language with the beginnings of a literature, some dedicated adherents, and has the well known advantage of being instantly recognizable by many of the people in the world. It is a shame that it can't ever become the international language. It is so much more pleasant than english.

After perusing the other candidates, they are all impossible as well. Therefore I will enjoy interlingua for its own sake.

Learning interlingua is taking me in interesting directions of exploration with communication altogether and also into investigating the role of language in thought and worldview. It's all been thought and investigated by others but I'm noticing that most of what I'm reading reeks of academic competitiveness. Academic rigor is worthy but this other stuff, wow, terrible, as in any other field. Corporate ladder climbing is nothing compared with academic backstabbing, and the rewards are so puny.

It looks like the 'inter' languages are worthy of study in order to survey the literature of the source languages. French is comprehensible and so is italian now. Not so three weeks ago. Probably would be true with interslavic and the slavic languages.

In any case it will be fun to continue.

For those interested the you can find very useful information on blissymbols at http://www.blissymbolics.us
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